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Wednesday, June 9, 2010

Oh, Come, All Ye Hateful

There is an increasingly vocal and aggressive direction being taken by some Christians. That many American Christians supported the Bush administration and its wars is well known. At present the level of dehumanization of Muslims and outright advocacy of genocide is becoming much louder.

Consider the following exchange on Facebook (I'm going to keep these people anonymous). Someone posted, "If the Palestinians put down their weapons there would be peace, if the Israeli's put down their weapons there would be no more Jews". The supportive comments started coming in. I replied with,

I don't know. It would behoove the Palestinians to engage in civil disobedience. They'd get a lot more support that way (witness the Freedom Flotilla).

If Israel stopped oppressing, Israel as we know it would cease to exist, but no more Jews? The Afrikaners said the same kinds of things in South Africa to justify Apartheid. While it's very true that Mandela & his successors are making a mess of things, there's been no slaughter.

Consider this about the fighting:

The Israeli government, like the one ruling us, thrives on crises and seems to go to great lengths to cultivate them. As I've pointed out before, there is a sick symbiosis between the Israeli regime and Palestinian terrorist chieftains, a relationship documented by Richard Ben Cramer in his valuable and infuriating book How Israel Lost.

"Things are not as they seem," writes Cramer. "The [Palestinian Authority's] business intersects with Israeli business at the highest levels of Israeli political life." This explains the tacit "arrangement" in which Israeli and Palestinian rulers sustain each other through carefully timed incidents of lethal violence.

Before Yasir Arafat died, he would be regularly "rescued" by Israeli military strikes against Palestinian targets, Cramer observes. The same was true of Arafat's supposed arch-enemy, Ariel Sharon: "If his polls dropped, something terrible happened -- dead Jews all over the TV" -- and Sharon's political fortunes would dramatically improve.

From "We Bought The Bullets"

Every state needs its Emanuel Goldstein, don't be fooled!

The hate began. During the discussion one person replied with these two comments,

If the Israelis would just use all of theirs, we could stop talking about all the other cockroaches. They want to be martyrs, let's help the [sic] succeed... all at once, right now.

Followed later in the discussion with,

Israel is going to have to wipe them all out eventually, in order to survive. That being the case, and we all know it is the case, why not just get it over with? How many thousands of their cirizens [sic] can be saved by not waiting to be hit first (for the ten thousnadth [sic] time)? Just do what needs to be done, we did it to end WW2, and look how effective it was. No we've turned into a bunch of female genitals (poltically [sic] speaking) and look at the manure we routinely put up with, just like Israel. Just push a few buttons and send 'em to their blow-up doll virgins in hell. That's my vote.

Referring to people as cockroaches is using the language of the Rwandan genocide of 1994. Another disgusting example of dehumanizing an enemy to justify killing them. One is reminded of the Nazis referring to the Jews as rats.

Another person decided to turn their hate on me,

Thanks XXXX! Sometimes you feel alone battling against the blockheads who think Peace Flotillas, are peaceful, and that hitting a terrorist BACK is bad. There are just so many stupid people in the world, and we don't have enough bullets!

The person who posted the above has since deleted it, which is quite understandable, I'd be embarrassed to have written that too.

Along the same lines there was an exchange at the Future of Freedom Foundation's event "Restoring Liberty and the Constitution" on Friday June 4, 2010. (Which I attended.) During the question and answer period a woman took exception to James Bovard calling for the rights of the prisoners at Guantanamo, Cuba being respected. The woman went on to say that "those bastards" have to be stopped so they won't kill our families. They don't need to be Mirandized, she said. They're guilty, the government wouldn't just arrest people "willey-nilly", she went on.

Now, I can't say with certainty that that woman is a Christian, I don't even know her name. Certainly the odds favor her being one. Perhaps she's Jewish. Surely she's not a Muslim.

The last example is a conversation I had years ago with a devout Christian who said of the War on Terror that it's better to be the hunter than the prey.

This is not to say that all Christians are so evil. There are no doubt many who are as repulsed by this kind of thinking as I am. However, it would seem that there are too many who subscribe to this hateful world view. During the discussion on Facebook mentioned above no one else took exception to the calls for killing. If anything the other commentors were supportive of the hate.

These hateful Christians may only be a minority of those who believe in that religion. It is important, though, that they be exposed and taught a better way. That being the way of peace, liberty, and tolerance. Then, and only then, can we end the hate and the killing.


  1. Excellent article! I agree it is important to expose such self-righteous hypocrisy. Some of the worst atrocities in history has occurred by those proclaiming to be "Christians," and the evil of such can be extreme due to the fact they wrap themselves in their flag and their "God." What a dangerous common combination - nationalism and religion.

    Some of most vitriolic expressions of hatred I've heard has come from the mouths of those claiming to be "Christians." Often that hatred is expressed toward Palestinians, Muslims, and Mexicans who are undocumented workers. The "war on terror" brings out the same self righteous arrogant hatefulness from those calling themselves "Christian" while condoning the suspension of habeas corpus and other civil liberties even to the extent of accepting or advocating torture or murder. I hear all manner of rationalizations as they try to excuse the hatred they espouse, but what is comes down to is that they let fear do their choosing between right and wrong. Whomever they fear, they hate. By bringing their "God" into it, they then deceive themselves into having a seemingly clear conscience while committing much evil (I believe advocating evil is, from a spiritual perspective, the same as having committed it). In the Bible, it says, "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer..." in 1 John 3:15, King James version.

    Due to the prevalence of such vitriol, such people are either in the majority of those claiming the Christian faith or else more likely they are a vocal minority who go unchallenged by others (the majority) who call themselves Christians. Either way, no true Christian who believes in the love Jesus taught would condone such expressions of hatred. Calling oneself "Christian" is like calling oneself anything- it takes more than words to be it.

    As a Christian, I recommend those who do hold a spiritual belief in love and those who have a religious faith, to never let such expressions of hatred go unchallenged when expressed by someone who claims to identify with your particular belief system. Apathy in the face of such evil leads not only to others linking that hatred with Christianity, but actually leads to greater evils. Identify the hypocrisy for what it is, and let others know it does not reflect the spiritual faith you may hold.

    Thank you for such an excellent article - your perspective is right on.

  2. It's so sad to have studied historical incidents where people committed atrocities against other people over such silly things as the color of skin, where one was born, one's religious beliefs or a scrap of colored cloth ... only to see it repeated in front of one's eyes in real life in this supposed modern, enlightened 21st century. I thought we humans were done with this nonsense (and had moved on to less violent nonsense).

  3. I wish I could disagree with you.

    Shortly after Israel's golden age of statelessness under the judges (I realize I'm assuming what needs to be proven, the justice of the conquest under Joshua), their society unraveled because of their rebellion against the Torah (yes, another assumption). They decided that they needed a state to put things back together and keep from being overrun. It didn't work. They should have gone back to the Torah and remained stateless.

    US Christians are seeing their society fall apart and are making the same mistake: looking to the state rather than to the Bible. Where they were once grateful to God for a government that left them alone, they became grateful to the government, and now they defend the government no matter how un-God-like it is.

    Israel fell to ancient statists from the east. The US looks like it will fall to modern statists from the east.

    People learn slowly.

  4. This new century has not been a boon thus far for faith in human nature.

    Thanks for the reference to my spiel in Pennsylvania. There were lots of savvy, principled pro-freedom folks in the audience - it was a treat to exchange ideas with people who are putting their shoulders behind the fight for their own freedom.

    My impression of the lady who vigorously disagreed during Q & A was that she was most offended by my comments on torture.

  5. I agree that there is outspoken hatred by some Christians and it is deplorable. I also agree that within each religious or even racial group, there exists hatred and fear for opposing groups. It is a shame, but it does not represent the whole group. Yes, we should call out the problems of hating a group when it's individuals with bad behavior who are really the problem, not the group itself. I think it's important to make sure we don't retaliate with hateful speech or attitudes, because then we are no different. As a Christian I am challenged to constantly be compassionate, forgiving and loving, even towards my "enemies." That is why I personally believe I can only call myself a Christian in training-one who strives to be Christ-like. It is an ongoing journey towards peace within oneself.

  6. Thank you all for the comments.

    I'm a little disappointed that no one from the pro-war side choose to debate this here. In their hearts they know they're wrong.

    I did loose a Facebook friend over this, the one whose page the quoted comments are on. Oh well, people that make noise on the internet shouldn't be so sensitive.

  7. "I'm a little disappointed that no one from the pro-war side choose to debate this here. In their hearts they know they're wrong. "

    haha, what a load.

    let me get the disclaimer out of the way first; bush and cheney should be brought up on charges of treason for the patriot act alone, period.

    The facts are: There's never been a palestine. (It was an insult from the romans on the jews by renaming their land after their enemies, the philistines)

    yassir arafat was an egyptian.

    no arabic country wants the "palestinians", so that the problem could be resolved. they are there as a constant source of turmoil for israel due to political/world opinion.

    they would rather buy weapons, then use the money they get from the UN and the like on things like roads, infrastructure, schools, etc.

    they elected a terrorist form of govt. (hamas)

    they elected a terrorist govt. (worth repeating)

    have been guilty many times of faking dead kids being carried away after bomb blasts, only for the "corpse" to fall of the bed that was being carried, and get off the ground and get back on the deathbed.



    they have launched over 6000 rockets last year alone at israel, the fact that they're still vertical should be a testament to israel's restraint.

    and for the record i am not a jew, or a zionist, what i am concerned about is factual reporting, which most of you seem to know nothing about.

  8. Some positive feedback:

    Hi Darren,

    Thank you for posting this article "O Come all Ye Hateful". For the past 2 days, I have wondered in my heart on this very same subject. When I came across your post, I was immediately comforted to know that I was not alone with only a few here in this forum. (I was even thinking, if someone else does not speak out, I may leave this forum) I thank you Darren very much.

    I especially liked some of the comments at the end of this article and just wanted to post them.

  9. OK, Anonymous, what facts did I get wrong here?

    You seem to have missed that I wrote, "It would behoove the Palestinians to engage in civil disobedience." I'm calling for an end to the violence.

    I'm not a Christian, but one did put it perfectly at a forum where I posted a link to this article:

    I read this thread, and all its posts, and after a few moments, this parable came to mind, and I'll put it here as my "answer":


    The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

    But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

    At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

    "No one, sir," she said.
    "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

    John 8:3-11

  10. Since you appear to want a civil dialogue, i will engage then.
    In your own words you say, "I don't know. It would behoove the Palestinians to engage in civil disobedience. They'd get a lot more support that way (witness the Freedom Flotilla)."

    The Palis are not interested in peace, as i already stated they elected a terroristic form of govt.(This is a fact that can't be argued with)
    Their neighbors also aren't interested in peace. This has NOTHING to do with peace. This is a blood feud dating all the way back to Isaac and Ismael,
    ie: it's a religious war.

    "If Israel stopped oppressing, Israel as we know it would cease to exist, but no more Jews?"
    I'm sorry, exactly how many rabbis have snuck c4 or semtex on buses and blown dozens of passengers away?
    You can't compare western ideals with middle east culture, you just can't. it's an arrogant and ignorant way of thinking.

    "The Israeli government, like the one ruling us, thrives on crises and seems to go to great lengths to cultivate them."
    How is it that israel accepts all jews, in the millions, coming to their country, (including arab citizens wanting dual-citizenship no less)
    and yet the remaining 95% of the region can't accept/absorb 800K palestinian refugees? Hmmm?

    Here's two thoughts i leave with; one, most ppl are willfully ignorant about history concerning israel, and two most aren't aware of the WILLFUL deception
    of the arabs over there.

    To the first, the idea of a palestinian state. They already have a palestinian state, it's called Jordan! Look up pre 1948 maps, and see the declarations
    that were made for crying out loud! everything west of the jordan river is suppossed to be theirs free and clear.
    as for the "occupied terrortories, well that's too bad, spoils of war. don't start nothing, won't be nothing.

    secondly, here's a quote from DAVID MAKOVSKY on Arafat: "I think in the case of Arafat if you're going have some arrangements in Jerusalem and sharing of holy places, you cannot do it -- as Arafat says there never was a Jewish temple, it never existed, there was never really a Jewish history in the land, then his successor is going to say, well, Arafat is our George Washington; if he didn't agree to this, how can you expect me to agree to it?

    it's called the temple mount, hello?! it was called that long before the dome of the rock was built there in 629 Ad. it isn't called the temple mount b/c a guy by the name of temple owned a car lot there!

    the bottom line is this" these people are NOT interested in peace, period. the sooner you all wake up to that fact, and realize that, the better off you'll be.

  11. Gotta agree with the above. There seems to be a very strange immunity to the root narrative that drives the whole situation over there. Palestinians hate Jews, and they're brainwashed from an early age to do so. Investigate Palestinian children's television programming. Kids are taught from an early age that Jews are scum, and that the Holocaust never occurred, or it was the Jews' own fault if it did.

    Just compare it to our own southwest. Imagine if a group of Mexicans/Hispanics were adamant about this area really still belonging to Mexico, even though it was acquired legitimately through war and other means. They launched rockets indiscriminately into cities and towns. Suicide bombers all over the place. Would we put up with that? No, our actions would make the Israelis' brand of defensive behavior look like it was designed by Monks and Nuns.

    As it stands, there's far too many of we Americans, and Europeans, giving aid and comfort to the irrational, bigoted mindset held by far too many in the Arab/Muslim/Palestinian world.

  12. To the 2 Anonymous commenters, thank you for your politeness & your comments.

    I have to say that I'm surprised at some of what you 2 have written. It would seem to make my case.

    One of you talked about refugees. The fact that Israel readily accepts Jews & not anyone else is discriminatory. For example, lets make the US a white country. Whites get all the privileges. Is that OK with you? I'm sure it's not. Why should it be any different for Israel?

    I think Palestinian refugee question is a good one. If Israel is so good to the Palestinians why are there refugees? Hmmm....

    There's actually more peace now than ever. How one looks at the middle east & says the Arabs don't want peace is strange. Please read: "The Limits of Public Opinion: Arabs, Israelis and the Strategic Balance"

    The American SW is a very strange thing to bring up here. First, US settlers moved into Texas. They then took it over & broke away from Mexico. (Settlers from outside. Sounds like Israel, doesn't it?) Then the US launched a war of aggression & took over 1/2 of Mexico. That Mexico didn't like this is quite understandable.

    So, why is it so hard to understand that the Palestinians don't like people from outside coming in & taking them over?

    The Palestinians need to stop the terrorism, absolutely. Israel needs to stop their repression. That is the source of their problems. If Israel were the goose that laid the golden egg for the Palestinians they'd be fine with it.

    Here's a different view of the situation: The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and the Classical-Liberal Alternative

    Individuals have every right to go to Israel/Palestine regardless of where they're from. What no one has a right to do is set up a state favoring one group & oppressing the other.

  13. You haven't addressed the root narrative.

    It's instructive to look at the American Southwest here again. Hispanics AREN'T raised to hate Americans, although there's a a a certain amount of that on the fringes. But there's nothing approaching the Arab attitude that it's actually noble to kill your "opponent".

    But what if there was? Imagine that alternate reality being true, and the horrific violence and the threat to a peaceful, secure existence, and you might start to understand Israel's basically defensive postures.

  14. Anonymous,

    Now you're evading my points.

    I condemn all the violence from all sides. As my article states "It would behoove the Palestinians to engage in civil disobedience." In retrospect Perhaps I could have made the point more emphatically. Let me make it here, evil actions on one side don't justify evil, violent actions by the other. There should also be no indoctrinating to kill other people. This applies to all sides in the conflict.

    Lastly, Israel is being as defensive as the Texans. That means not at all, they are/were the occupiers.

  15. "One of you talked about refugees. The fact that Israel readily accepts Jews & not anyone else is discriminatory. "

    I'm sorry, but this is a lie.

    They accept people who are willing to live in PEACE with them, by definition Hamas' main goal is to destroy them. (It's in their charter)

    Secondly, and more importantly, why the hypocrisy with Israel, and not Egypt? Are you aware of Egypt sealing it's borders with Gaza? actively pumping in poisonous gas no less into tunnels that lead into Egypt?

    Yet I never hear of how evil or draconian Egypt is, why is that?

    And now the truth has come out about the floatilla. Israel assaulted the floatilla with non-lethal crowd control paintball guns, and it wasn't until they were assaulted with knives, etc that they went to their secondary firearms.

    This wasn't a "humanitarian mission" Greta Berlin says it's less about humanitarian aid, and more about politics. (And she's the leader of this thing)

    So as long as the media is going to be so blatantly hypocritical, and blame Israel for everything, while giving Egypt and the other countries a pass, and basically make up news stories with a spin that doesn't support the facts, i could care less about what's being said. You can't trust msm, because it's obvious an agenda is being set up here, and no one is interested in the FACTS of the story, ANY story concerning Israel.

    what happened to reporting the f acts, instead of making up your version of what happened?

    journalism is DEAD.

  16. Anonymous,

    Sure peace is achievable if the slaves are willing to submit. But what kind of peace is that?

    You say that Israel will accept anyone that will live in peace. Why, then do they grant automatic citizenship to Jews & not anyone else?

    Anyway, Egypt has nothing to do with this. We're wondering away from the subject of the article, which was Christians. I didn't defend anybody in the article. I didn't try to cover everything related to the mid east.

    I think you're wondering away from the topic because you have no arguments against my premise.

  17. "I think you're wondering away from the topic because you have no arguments against my premise. "

    You're dreaming.

    Don't confuse me with the other anonymous posted here, I don't evade. You said he was b/c he wouldn't answer a question you asked, yet you have as of yet to respond to mine.

    Why was the temple mount called the temple mount if the jews have no claim to the land?

    Why does the world hate Israel now, more importantly, why have they always hated Israel?

    Why do ppl constantly repeat the same historically incorrect rhetoric about palestine? And yet treat the jews as the invaders?

    and egypt is hardly irrelevant, it just shows the world's hypocrisy against israel and jews to begin with.

    you're premise, as i stated earlier, IS wrong, plainly put, b/c ppl that support your view look at history with an agenda, and not as history actually happened. you cement these "facts" by continuing to perpetuate lies as history, despite evidence to the contrary.

    i give you sources about arafat, shalada. (have you even taken the time to look up what that term even MEANS?) the declarations, (no comment about feisal or balfour huh?) etc.

    transjordan, pre 1948 borders, and you have the gall to say i have no argument with your premise?!

    last time i come here, you're too full of yourself to have a conversation with.

    good day.

  18. OK, Anonymous,

    Shalada is a salad, so what?

    You're still not addressing what my article is about.

    Your questions are based on collectivism, which I reject. Neither Jews nor Palestinians, as groups, have a claim to anything. As individuals everyone has a right to go anywhere in the world as long as they respect the property of others.

  19. Thanks to Dan Sullivan for writing this. Let's hope we never have to hear him sing it! LOL

    I was expecting a song parody. Rather than be disappointed, I wrote one. I added some footnotes for those of you who are not familiar with Christian Scripture. I figured it was better to point to direct violations of Christian Scripture by the Christian Right than to merely ridicule them. -ds

    Oh, Come, all ye hateful,
    Spiteful and vindictive
    Oh Come in your viciousness
    To throw Christian stones.1
    Lovers of money,
    boastful, proud, abusive2
    Oh, Come let us betray Him.
    Oh, Come let us betray Him.
    Oh, Come let us betray Him,
    Christ, the Lord.

    Love not thy neighbor,
    If he's not a Christian
    Rebuke the infidel
    To e-ternal hell.
    There are no good Muslims,
    Commies or Samaritans.3
    Oh, Come let us betray Him.
    Oh, Come let us betray Him.
    Oh, Come let us betray Him,
    Lamb of God.

    Those who would slight Him,
    Let us cut their ears off.
    Fight for His kingdom,
    The great U. S. A.4
    Blest are the wrathful,
    Greedy and vainglorious.5
    Oh, Come let us betray Him.
    Oh, Come let us betray Him.
    Oh, Come let us betray Him,
    Lamb of God.

    Columns of soldiers
    Kill in exultation.
    Kill the suspicious ones;
    Let God sort them out.6
    Gory to God,
    In the highest Gory.
    Oh, Come let us betray Him.
    Oh, Come let us betray Him.
    Oh, Come let us betray Him,
    Prince of Peace.

    1 Jesus came upon a crowd who was about to stone an adulteress and said, "Whoever among you is without sin, let him cast the first stone."

    2 from Timothy, Chapter 3:

    People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God - having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

    3 When asked who was to be included in the edict in Leviticus to "Love thy neighbor as thyself," Jesus told the parable of "The Good Samaritan." The Samaritans were an unorthodox Jewish sect that mainstream Jews despised.

    4 Jesus rebuked one of the apostles for cutting off the ear of one of the servants who came to arrest Him, saying that fighting for him was wrong, because his Kingdom was not of this world.

    5 These are three of the Seven Deadly Sins. Also, it is a rebuke of Matthew, Chapter 5

    6 This phrase traces back to the 12th century crusade against the Cathars in the South of France, but has been used repeatedly since then, in both Viet Nam and in the Persian Gulf wars.

    - "Preacher Dan"

  20. The speech given by James Bovard referred to above can be viewed online now. The woman makes her comments at 24:20: